What is the best lifting gas for an airship?

Technical discussions regarding LTA-technology.

What is the best lifting gas for an airship?

Hydrogen
11
37%
Helium
11
37%
Methane
0
No votes
Hot Air
0
No votes
A combination of one/more of the above
8
27%
Other
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 30

User avatar
AvA
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:55 am
Gender: None specified

Re: What is the best lifting gas for an airship?

Postby AvA » Sun Jul 03, 2016 1:35 pm

Maluka wrote:Helium gives you ease of mind during flight.
Hydrogen gives you ease of mind during night when you know filling the airship won't cost you a kidney.
Sure there can be a lot of helium in the ground, but as it is extracted as a by product the supply isn't that high.
Hydrogen can be created and offers more lifting power, but also more challenges regarding safety.
But challenges only exist to be solved, that goes for either hydrogen danger and helium scarcity.

In the end, both work, know the risks and use what you are willing to afford :)


I agree with this.
I also want to add that using one lifting gas does not have to exclude the other
So I voted " A combination of one/more of the above "

Sean
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:07 am
Gender: None specified
Flag: United States of America

Re: What is the best lifting gas for an airship?

Postby Sean » Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:17 am

Unless you are rich there's pretty much no other option then hydrogen for any personal sized airship. Unless if there's envelope material that does not leak and is also afforable, but there is none in existence (yet) that I know off. I believe this is an area we need to research further. Maybe there are certain new chemical adherents that can create a 99.99999% leakproof envelope. If we ever create something like this then airships could also be used as storage places for helium and create demand to get it out of the ground.

GHE
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 2:36 pm
Gender: None specified

Re: What is the best lifting gas for an airship?

Postby GHE » Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:31 am

LZ-130’s passenger capacity was reduced from the 72 carried by Hindenburg to 40 because it transitioned from hydrogen to helium

User avatar
AvA
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:55 am
Gender: None specified

Re: What is the best lifting gas for an airship?

Postby AvA » Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:51 am

GHE wrote:LZ-130’s passenger capacity was reduced from the 72 carried by Hindenburg to 40 because it transitioned from hydrogen to helium


Anyone know why it was reduced so drastically? Doesn't helium only have about 8% less lift than hydrogen?

turtleairships
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2016 10:15 pm
Gender: None specified
Contact:

Re: What is the best lifting gas for an airship?

Postby turtleairships » Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:27 pm

A design flaw, common to virtually ALL past airships....allows for lifting gasses to expand in FLEXIBLE envelopes and/or gas cells.

In the case of zeppelins, both hydrogen and helium would expand inside their gas cells which are held inside the outer "skin" of the airship's hull. If the expansion was too much, then gas would automatically be vented.
When using hydrogen, the gas cells could be inflated to (x) capacity, with the expectation that, even if they expand to full capacity and then overfill to the point where some is lost through venting.....that hydrogen can be easily and cheaply replaced.
Since helium was not readily available and much more expensive, one would not want to vent any at all.
The solution is simply to carry less helium than the normal (x) amount of hydrogen; allowing more room inside the gas cells for the helium to expand without ever needing to vent.

User avatar
AvA
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:55 am
Gender: None specified

Re: What is the best lifting gas for an airship?

Postby AvA » Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:45 pm

@Turtleairships, thanks for the clarification. Good to know it's a design flaw and not something that's simply inherently there, because I don't believe that a ship the size of the Graf Zeppelin II could financially operate without subsidy if it were to carry only 40 passengers. The price per ticket would be incredibly high.
However, isn't that design flaw solved nowadays with ballonets? Could ballonets be used in rigid airships?
(sorry for my lack of technical knowledge, I got a lot to learn.)

User avatar
AvA
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:55 am
Gender: None specified

Re: What is the best lifting gas for an airship?

Postby AvA » Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:57 pm

I do realize now that there are so many things regarding airships that can and need improvement, and many things need drastic rearrangement and modification to our current standards and knowledge. Blimp engineering continued well after the war years until where we are now, but rigid airship technology is something that's far from finished and still lacking behind.

turtleairships
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2016 10:15 pm
Gender: None specified
Contact:

Re: What is the best lifting gas for an airship?

Postby turtleairships » Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:45 am

@ Ava Wording in my reply to you is certain to ruffle some feathers. But that is my purpose.
specifically, the word "flaw"....reflects my own attitude regarding ALL other airships, past and present, and too many future.....
It would be less controversial if I had simply used the word "feature" instead.

so, about your question concerning ballonets: these are used to inflate/deflate with air. doing so effects the volume (or "weight" if that's easier to visualize) of an airship. ballonet are used in non-rigid airships (blimps) because the entire body of the blimp is really just a large gas bag, and effecting the volume also effects the pressure inside the blimp to maintain it's hull shape. (it is in constant flux). since rigid airships do not have the problem of their shapes changing much, ballonet are unnecessary, and would simply be redundant to the expansion/contraction or inflation procedures already in place.

You write: " ....... there are so many things regarding airships that can and need improvement, and many things need drastic rearrangement and modification ...."

I especially like the wording "so many" and "drastic" !!!!! You are absolutely correct. Virtually all would-be-airship contructors, private or commercial, are still trying to build airships that are little more than elongated balloons, or giant Chinese lanterns..........all still mired in the 19th Century.

Turtle Airships is dedicated to creating airships that are FULLY RIGID, similar to an airplane fuselage.

Sean
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:07 am
Gender: None specified
Flag: United States of America

Re: What is the best lifting gas for an airship?

Postby Sean » Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:04 pm

Believing that anything larger than blimps for passenger travel is going to use hydrogen in this time and age takes quite a large leap of faith, though. There would probably large petitions if not massive lobbying to prevent it from happening undertaken by worried citizens and companies like Boeing. It's the perfect excuse and argument for them to exclude competition

Hiroshi
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun May 01, 2016 3:17 pm
Gender: None specified

Re: What is the best lifting gas for an airship?

Postby Hiroshi » Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:06 am

I say both helium and hydrogen. Helium for outer cell surrounding inner cell with hydrogen.


Return to “Technical Aspects”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider] and 1 guest